McKinley Dixon Loves (Pop) Punk

WORDS: Benny Sun

Go Ahead in the Rain, by Hanif Abdurraqib, is the first book I ever read. Having forgone reading outside mandatory contexts, Go Ahead reminded me reading could be beautiful. It intricately knits personal, historical, and even poetic and spiritual narratives together to surround A Tribe Called Quest, presenting them in the nuanced lens of greatness they deserve. Through the book, Abdurraqib singlehandedly reignited my love of reading, and by proxy, my love of writing.


I found the book a fitting conversation starter for McKinley Dixon, the Virginia rapper hot off the heels of Beloved! Paradise! Jazz? Opening the record is a passage from Toni Morrison’s Jazz, delivered by none other than Hanif Abdurraqib, one of his generation’s most acclaimed poets and essayists. Having found footing in the historied lineage of jazz rap pioneered by A Tribe Called Quest for half a decade now, the record was released to widespread acclaim from major outlets for Dixon’s pointed worldbuilding and storytelling.


Ahead of his Brooklyn show at Baby’s All Right, I sat down with McKinley Dixon to chat about Hanif Abdurraqib, his mother and his newfound fame, and Fall Out Boy.
 

[Note: This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity. No Fall Out Boy mention is omitted, however.]


To start, I actually have something for you. This is a copy of Go Ahead in the Rain by Hanif Abdurraqib, his book about A Tribe Called Quest.

Wow, I don’t have this one! I have They Can’t Kill Us Until They Kill Us, which is fucking incredible, and A Little Devil in America. That shit is incredible, holy shit.


So the author of that book, Hanif Abdurraqib, opens up your album with the track “Hanif Reads Toni.”

Beautiful.


I’ve read a lot of your interviews, and you end up talking a lot about Toni Morrison and her influence on your work, but I wanted to talk about Hanif. How did this collaboration happen? Did you ask him to open it up, did he reach out?

He’s also a legend from Ohio, so he’s a bit of a [descendant] of Toni Morrison. He actually put For My Mama and Anyone Who Look Like Her on his top albums of 2021. Now whether it was top 10, or top 50, I don’t remember. I say it was top 10, but I don’t remember so don’t fact check that.


[It came in square 10th.]


From there, I told him “I’m working on this concept album. Eventually I will want you to be on it. Would you like to take part in it,” and he said “Sure, just let me know when you’re ready.” After that, I just sent him the record. I didn’t even send him an instrumental or anything, and he just picked a Toni Morrison passage, an excerpt from the beginning of Jazz.


I think what makes Hanif special is how he bridges the gap between poetry and literature, so how do you draw the connection between the work you do and his style of writing.

I think it’s really easy. I think that for black folk, writing about their time on this earth while mixing it with music is something that is inherent. That’s what I also draw from Hanif and why we are similar, because we both have this sort of musical catalog that dates back to like, pop punk, he’s also a Fall Out Boy historian, so these sort of things I came up with, he came up with as well but was a little bit older than me, and can explain them better.


Another connection to draw between you guys is the topic of grief. He ends up writing a lot about grief, in relation to the music. You mentioned his Fall Out Boy fandom, he talks a lot about the old punks he grew up with slowly passing away. You have the song “Tyler, Forever” on your record, so do you often find yourself using your words and your music to process that grief?

I think you can’t truly process by making a record. You can work on it, and you can feel better about your experiences by talking about them and thinking about them but I honestly don’t think you can process by making music. I don’t think releasing music is processing, you gotta do more work than just dropping albums. You gotta actually go out there, when you’re not making music, and try to learn to live and talk to people, more.


Shifting gears a little, last year you were on a record by Soul Glo [Diaspora Problems], specifically “Spiritual Levels of Gang Shit.” Awesome record, awesome album, awesome band–

Yeah, yes I was, that record is fucking sick dude, thank you. Those are the homies.


How did that happen? I mean you don’t really see much crossover between [punk and rap], so how did that happen? Did they ask you, did you hit them up?

I came up in the DIY scene and originally in 2014, 15, I was an outlier, because my rap music was like alternative, instrumentals, and they were an outlier because they were doing punk music, which is automatically different. So I think we just automatically became friends and peers, and then next to each other we became legends. And I think just staying with it for as long as we did together, made us make sense. That’s why it took so long for us to get a record out, because you know, you have to wait.


Did you approach the record any differently than you would featuring on another rap record?

Nah. It’s all the same, punk and rap are in the same boathouse.


Did you grow up listening to a lot of punk?

I grew up listening to a lot of pop punk, I listened to a lot of Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Pierce the Veil. Not much blink-182, I don’t think I really liked the voice on blink-182, but I listened to that one song repeatedly, “Miss You.”


Have you heard the new Turnstile stuff?

The remix album?


Oh that and GLOW ON.

I did hear that. Turnstile sometimes gets a little Beastie Boys for me, in some ways. But I saw them live, with JPEGMAFIA.


I saw that show! It was amazing.

Oh my God, it was fucking phenomenal.


To see those artists on a stage that big, because it was a sizable tour, it was awesome.

Yeah it was great.


Going back to collaborators, you got a shit ton of people on your record. You have almost a full band driving every song. How do you get such a big group of people to work in your favor, to create such a cohesive record, for it to work with all the lyrics and messages you’re trying to deliver.

That’s a good question that I think I will ask bassist Cav over here [referring to Anthony Cavanaugh, Dixon’s bassist]. How do I get a bunch of people together on a record as you have several times for my records.


AC: You definitely call people that you have specific sounds in mind for, so if you want a saxophone player that plays a really crazy solo, you call a specific guy. If you want someone to play a pretty melody on flute, you call a certain, same with the keys.


Yeah, that’s how you do it.


More on the vocal end, you also have a lot of different vocalists on your record doing tons of different shit. You have singer-songwriters, you have folk artists; how do you cast that net, how do you decide “Oh I want this folk singer on this song,” or “I want this rapper on this track?”

I sort of build the idea of what the album is about before, and then I write out characters, in certain ways. The thing is, everybody on my records, they’re on my records forever. So they are sort of recurring for their role. They might not be a specific character, but their cadence remains, like Teller Bank$ will always be Teller Banks$, Alfred will always be Alfred, Ghais [Guevara] will be Ghais. So I sort of pull them in their positions that I know for them.


It’s interesting you mention the characters, because looking back on your past records, you bring back a lot of people, you take them to do that recurring role, so it’s interesting to hear that that’s a very intentional callback decision.

Oh definitely. I honestly think if it doesn’t work out once, you just come back with more people.


Speaking of past work, how has this album cycle been different to the last, and the one before that.

So different. I mean, with For My Mama, people knew the songs, but it wasn’t like a campaign was done, people just genuinely knew the songs. Whereas for this one, because we did radio, because we did all these things, people know the songs before we get on stage. The moment we start playing, people are ready. So it’s been really validating, affirming in that sense.


Yeah you’ve been getting tons of attention across the board, like you had a Rolling Stone article! How have those rounds been?

Yeah haha I mean at some point, you just gotta keep working, y’know. Like I love it. Rolling Stone, my mom read Rolling Stone, it’s the only one she cared about, so. I was like “mom I’m in Fader!” and she was like “what the fuck is that? Are you getting paid?” and I was like “nah, ma.” She was like “alright maybe next time.”


Do you ever get scared that sometime down the line, you’d lose those DIY roots you were talking about, you’d lose track of that spirit of collaboration or these kinds of things that you only get in a real homegrown environment?

Nah. I mean that’s why I have the same people on my record, why would I have somebody else on there if I already know someone that can do it great. Like Cav, I know Cav. Why would I have someone new that can play the bass, when I can have someone that I know, that I can talk to very comfortably, play the bass all the time. It’s just better.


The way you talk about your band, I’m guessing touring is going well? Sticking with all of them back to back.

Oh man, I actually fucking hate these n****s, I hate all of you bro. I cannot STAND Cav. On record, I hate Cav. Remember this bro. But it’s been great, it’s definitely easier to talk to people when they have the idea, and Cav puts together all of the live arrangements, so it’s nice to also have someone that can direct people on their own time, and direct those specifics, because I’m not an instrumentalist. I can do it, but I don’t play better than they play, so it just became this thing.


Shifting gears a little, I read in an interview that your favorite album is The Ecstatic by Mos Def.

Yeah, crazy album.


Mos Def is from this very long lineage of alternative hip hop, jazz rap, their whole group out of Electric Lady. Did you grow up listening to a lot of jazz rap, a lot of stuff from that era?

No, no, all I grew up listening to, my mama only played Mary J. Blige. I only listened to Mary J. Blige growing up. Probably when I was in middle school, maybe late middle school I started listening to that shit, but all my mama played was Mary J. Blige.


Interesting you say that. Obviously, that book you’re holding, [Go Ahead in the Rain], it’s about Tribe, and all the impact they had. Do you find yourself drawing on that era of influence a lot, drawing on those kinds of artists in your work, or do you think you’re moving in a different lane?

Storytelling-wise. I think these artists are the best storytellers, when it comes to… Hold on I’mma send this to Hanif. Mind if I take a picture of you?

[McKinley proceeds to take a picture of me with the book to send to Hanif Abdurraqib. It’s a strange feeling, when your heroes, gods even, become suddenly aware of you, even to such a marginal, irrelevant extent. Still not sure how to feel about that.]

Storytelling-wise, this was the best era. I think the rapping capabilities were just different. Better or worse, it’s debatable, but definitely different. More straightforward at least.


Yeah, thinking back on Mos Def, and his stuff, he told these very vivid, very imaginable stories in his lyrics and I guess the whole 90s they spent doing that. So would you say these are rappers, like let’s say you’re stuck. If you have writer’s block, or something, what do you think about?

I don’t really listen to rap if I’m stuck. If I’m stuck, rap is not what I get out with. There are so many rappers that I’m inspired by, that are incredible musicians, incredible rappers, but I rap. Those are my peers, in a way. So I listen to other genres, I listen to a lot of pop punk! I sort of go back to the same records. I just rediscovered Fall Out Boy’s From Under the Cork Tree. It’s all in my Liked Songs. I also just got Spotify, so I’m rediscovering a lot of stuff. So there’s just so much, from all time, from all areas, sticking to just rap will keep you making the same thing.


What have you guys been playing on the tour bus?

[Turns to Cav] What have we been listening to on the tour bus?


AC: It’s kind of been all over the place, Snarky Puppy?


Snarky Puppy, that’s a good one to get hyped up with. I’ve been playing a lot of Fall Out Boy, I’ve been playing a lot of... I’ve actually been using my Discover Weekly a little bit more. And Florence + the Machine and Father.


Interesting you mention Discover Weekly, because I think it’s a really interesting time to be doing music in the underground circuits right now, a lot of people are relying on stuff like that to get music in their ears. I was actually talking to my friend about this, and I sent them a song of yours, and they said “I know it from my Discover Weekly, no idea who this guy is though.” How do you deal with that aspect of it, when you’re fighting an uphill battle against a lot of these algorithms and stuff.

Honestly, you just gotta work with it. For My Mama has a bunch of songs that are 5, 6 minutes long, that are really ridiculous, and they were great, but they were dense, ridiculous long songs. With this era, I thought “why don’t I just try and consolidate, and make these dense songs within two and a half minutes.” It’s honestly better, to get replay value, and whatnot. You just try and work with it. I can yell at the sun for as long as I want, but if it’s not gonna respond, I’mma just be blind.


Yeah it’s interesting, because some of your songs have begun getting that traction on those platforms, it’s always interesting to see how different artists react to that. You mention Fall Out Boy, they very intentionally had aspirations to go for the moon, versus Mos Def, committed to staying completely fresh. The Ecstatic was a giant middle finger to the industry.

And that’s why The Ecstatic was great, it was a guy who was so disinterested in the industry, people were saying he can’t do this anymore, he came back, he made that record, and it was fucking phenomenal.


Looking at the future, you have some tour left–

We got one more show after this, and then we have Europe. Europe’s cool, Europe’s always fun, it’s just far.


Yeah past that, you dropped the record this year, what do you think is in the future for you?

Shit, what is in the future for me. I don’t even know. I don’t know what’s in the future! Trying to stay happy, fall in love with my friends and loved ones, drink more water, cause I ain’t drink much water today, Do this show. Not throw up or piss myself on stage, I don’t know, whatever the worst thing you can do on stage is. Trip and die on stage. That’s the next thing.